Use GPS on Z9 without Navigator?

[coldsweat]

Is it possible to use the GPS for say, Google Maps on the Z9? I would like to avoid using AT&T Navigator completely and use GMaps for free. I know phones like the Blackjack are able to use Google Maps. However the java 'dumbphone' version of Google Maps doesnt even have the option to use GPS...

basically Im not interested in paying AT&T 5-10 dollars/month just to use the hardware that the Z9 ships with.

any ideas?

[boreal4real]

I think we need to unlock the GPS functionality before you can use a java-based program. Ive tried a few programs and they both give errors saying they cant connect with the GPS.

[Skrilax_CZ]

Only SIGNED java application may access Location API. You can get signed google maps from the link in my sig.

[carrier8ter]

I posted this in on Howard Forums and got nothing in reply.
Basically ONLY AT&T signed apps have permission to JSR-179 Location API. This means chances of GPS working with another program other than AT&T Navigator are slim.

To get access, we will need to hack the java security.

"Please discuss the java security implementation of AT&T and Motorola P2K05 devices and the possible hacks or workarounds to provide access to all the API's the phone supports.

From previous thread (edited a bit for clarity):

I bought a Z9 hoping to use the A-GPS. I can confirm the only way to do this is through ATT Navigator. There are no hacks that I know of to workaround it.

Very depressing to say the least and will probably lead to the sale of this handset. It's a shame that the hardware is so far ahead of the software and carrier policy. It's ridiculous not to be able to use all the supplied features of the handset! I thought AT&T was the "open" carrier... maybe, but only if you supply your own "unbranded and uncrippled" handset.

I was hoping to use Google Maps Mobile (gmaps) or MGMaps. Unfortunately, neither of these is possible. AT&T uses the Java signing specification to lock third party programs out of the JSR 179 Location API and JSR 75 File Connection API. The program must have a carrier (AT&T) provided certificate which required an "exsisting business relationship" with AT&T. This means it's expensive and AT&T gets to decide to whom and what to allow.

http://developer.att.com/developer/...ail&id=11300207

JSR 179 — Location Policy
Functionality/Domain Permission Settings
Untrusted Third Party Signed AT&T Signed
javax.microedition.location.Location - Denied - Denied - Denied
javax.microedition.location.Orientation - Denied - Denied - Denied
javax.microedition.location.ProximityListener - Denied - Denied - Denied
javax.microedition.location.LandmarkStore.read - Denied - Denied - Denied

Whether AT&T does this for "security" or as a revenue protector is fairly easy to decide...

I knew about this before purchasing. However I was hoping the Java Nag hack, removing the j2me_domain_registry.sm file, would allow access. I was badly mistaken. I believe what happens when this file is remove is that the default Motorola permissions are used. While removing this file does allow the user Ask Once permission for network apps, it still doesn't allow for JSR 179 Location or JSR 75 File access. This is because Motorola also blocks access the the API for unsigned applications.

http://developer.motorola.com/docst...ng_and_signing/

Restricted/Sensitive API/Function Untrusted Access Trusted Access
Location:
• javax.microedition.io.Connector.location
• javax.microedition.location.LandmarkStore.read
• javax.microedition.location.LandmarkStore.write
• javax.microedition.location.LandmarkStore.category
• javax.microedition.location.LandmarkStore.manageme nt
• javax.microedition.location.Location
• javax.microedition.location.ProximityListener
• javax.microedition.location.Orientation No Yes

The resolution would appear to be to install signed Gmaps and MGMaps, which would be allowed access to the APIs. The next problem though is when the j2me_domain_registry.sm file is removed I'm unable to installed signed applications. This could be because the .sm file points to which certificates are installed in order to verify the signed app is valid, or because I'm missing the default Motorola certificates.

A workaround could be to use the j2me_domain_registry.sm and certificates from and unbranded Motorola V9/V8, etc. Is there anyone who can provide those?

Another possibility could be using the files from a carrier who doesn't customize the java security. From Motorola's site:
These operators/carriers are known to customize the Java ME security policy and root certificate usage:
Amena Orange Telefonica
AT&T Rogers Ten
H3G (Three) T-Mobile EMEA/T-Mobile NA Vodafone/Vodafone France
H3G IL/Partner LATAM/Movistar Telenor (Nordic)
Telstra
NOTE: MIDlets digitally signed by Motorola or Java Verified may not install or run correctly on handsets
branded by these operators. Check with your operator for more information.

Anyone have another carrier and willing to provide the 2me_domain_registry.sm and certificates?"

[brett k]

well, I use google maps but it has trouble fiquring out where i am.
The last time I tried it said i was in Boston (I live in Washington DC)

[Skrilax_CZ]

Install stock java certificates on the phone (these seems to be same for ALL p2k & p2k05 phones).

And you can get developer certificate (phone specific) on developer.motorola.com so you can sign those that are not.

[atmfrank]

I just want to add for the record that while Motorola seems to keep the doors open for developers and essentially issues developer certificate for anyone to play around with and sign their apps, it's also not that simple. It's Alcatrez alright, as one poster mentioned, but each prison also has an escape.

In order to sign Java apps and make them "trusted" on the handset, one needs to know how to setup an IDE (Integrated Developer Environment) or Eclipse, install Java SDK's, Java run time environments and OpenSSL for generating certificate requests. Certs are issued to a specific handset uising the UID and the OpenSSL csr (cert request). Which means it only works on a "personalized" basis.

Motorola has excellent documentation that guides us through the process, so that part is good.

My frustration is with Google Mail, Opera and Widset, which is a Nokia developed content manager that makes heavy use of network data connections. It's impossible to run this application without being nagged at least 20 times for "yes, allow data access". I am planning to sign these apps and allow access to protected API through the developer root cert access.

If anyone cares how well the process works, let me know and I'll answer once I received the developer root cert from Motorola and being ready to sign those apps.

Short of replacing the entire OS with an MP, essentially nuking all the API protection, this is the way it has to be. I don't know what it will take to allow 3rd party apps to access the GPS functions, but that a different matter altogether...

Cheers and Happy Modding, -atmfrank

[Skrilax_CZ]

First to tell you, your certificate will work only for your phone and you cannot modify it since every certificate is signed by unchangeable control signature in the phone.

Secondly, I wrote a guide how to get your signed app working correctly. Link to it is in my sig.

[blemay42]

So, can anyone confirm they were able to get google maps working with GPS on their Z9 after trying the things listed above?

I recently deleted and re-downloaded google maps onto my z9 and it came with a signature. The approximate locator worked and it didn't constantly ask for network permission, but still no GPS.

[fuduh]

In Texas, I was able to get GPS on google maps to work when my phone was in 2.5G mode. I've had no success in 3G with google maps. I saw this post about it:

http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Maps-for-mobile/browse_thread/thread/89224d3bc290c8c5

I haven't found any other useful info about this problem yet.

[Skrilax_CZ]

And Z9 has real GPS module or just aGPS? Because real GPS is site independent while aGPS depends on the towers and their GPS Location.

[blemay42]

The Z9 has a-GPS, but that is only an enhancement to traditional GPS. Currently Google maps is only using its internal "My Location (beta)" software which only uses cell towers (not satellites) to give you an approximate location--which is why the blue location dot is surrounded by a blue uncertainty halo. If it were accessing the a-GPS antenna on the phone and using GPS satellites, it'd know exactly where you were at (within ~40m).

I haven't found anyone that's been able get the GPS working with an application other than ATT Navigator yet. Hopefully something comes out as it would be a huge waste if you could only use the GPS antenna through ATT Nav for $10/m.

[Skrilax_CZ]

Nono aGPS is assisted GPS and is based on tower triangle and those towers has their GPS location. It has nothing to do with sattelites.

Than the answer would be 3G towers don't have their GPS locations to submit.

[atmfrank]

Hello Skrilax, first thanks for your comprehensive guide on Motodev app signing. Great work ! Didn't stumble across this until yesterday (nubie here)

On GPS, I can offer the following observation. I am not an expert on GPS specifications, but this is what I know:

Earlier versions of Google Maps had the triangulation feature enabled. It worked on Z9 and all Blackberries I had a change to play with. The latest version Google Maps (2.2.0) does no longer, however it now appears to be signed by GeoTrust CA. It allows for "Ask Once.."

Google Maps triangulation methods does *not* depend on any GPS, or aGPS. It worked (or still works) on Blackberries without GPS chip (8120/8320). However the nice thing about BB's is that it allows for external GPS Bluetooth devices to interface with. Which means a Holux 1200 with latest generation GPS chip set, can be paired with the right phone. This provides accuracy to 3 meters ! while the phone pulls down any map data. Tested on GMaps, BBmaps, MS Live.

UNFORTUNATELY, the Z9 (or any Moto ?) doesn't offer bluetooth services for GPS interfaces.

[blemay42]

Here's what I found in my reading...

"Assisted GPS describes a system where outside sources, such as an assistance server and reference network, help a GPS receiver perform the tasks required to make range measurements and position solutions. The assistance server has the ability to access information from the reference network and also has computing power far beyond that of the GPS receiver. The assistance server communicates with the GPS receiver via a wireless link. With assistance from the network, the receiver can operate more quickly and efficiently than it would unassisted, because a set of tasks that it would normally handle is shared with the assistance server. The resulting AGPS system, consisting of the integrated GPS receiver and network components, boosts performance beyond that of the same receiver in a stand-alone mode."

Unless the Z9 is setup differently, it has the ability to lock with satellites (via its GPS receiver) and use the assistance server provided by cell towers in order to determine it's location. When a GPS signal isn't available directly to the phone, it will use the the cell towers to make a best guess. Of course this is currently only available through ATT Nav though.

[atmfrank]

To answer an earlier question, I have not been able to make any app signing method work for the Z9. GMM, Opera or anything for that matter. Posted my findings in Skrilax' guide section.

GPS and aGPS combined result in better accuracy, in particular when driving through a tunnel. AGPS was done in software with GMM and worked on phones without GPS chips.

[Skrilax_CZ]

Replied there.

[brett k]

So perhaps there's a way to unlock the network setting that will allow you to switch to edge (since GPS works in that mode)

[dwjp90]

call att if your gps freezes alot at 96,
ask to have a rep from telenav come into the call
they can help u fix it

[atmfrank]

I was finally able to get GMM and MGmaps installed on my Z9, thanks to the great JAVA signing guide provided by Skrilax.

First off, to help reduce any confusion with GPS versus aGPS, I found an excellent FAQ explaining the difference: http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/gps_vs_agps_a_quick_tutorial.html

Now that I have GMM and MGmaps installed as "signed apps", I can report the following:

Google Maps does appear to work using aGPS data to approximate the location. However, aGPS is INFERIOR to any phone with a real GPS chip, such as the latest SirfIII chips. Location is only accurate to 800 meters. Observed behavior: GMM first reports "location acccurate to 2800 m", then it switched to 800 m later on.

It should be noted, as I mentioned in my earlier post, GMM has the same functionality in phones that do not advertise any "aGPS" feature, such as the older BB Pearl or Curve (8120 and 8320) models. So what exactly the advertised "aGPS" feature is in the Z9 remains a marketing mystery. I suspect it simply hogwash.

MGmaps didn't at all work with "aGPS" on my Z9. I suspect that GMM does something like aGPS simulation in software, which means it doesn't need a aGPS chip to convert cell tower provided satellite data ! I have no proof of this, but why else would GMM behave *exactly* the same way with non-aGPS phones ?

I also have a HOLUX 1200 bluetooth GPS device, which can be connected using MGmaps (the only app that does this so far....) to the Z9. Now with the HOLUX, I get accuracy up to 3 meters (!). But, MGmaps doesn't use both technologies, while GMM does !

When GMM is first launched, it will first use aGPS (in software), then when a real GPS is available, via external BT device or internal, it will switch to that.

Conclusion:

1) Neither GMM or MGmaps uses the built-in aGPS chip.

2) Z9 with aGPS is useless, inaccurate and more than likely "inaccessible" because of the AT&T imposed JSR-179 restriction (still needs to be confirmed or hacked).

3) Z9 doen't have a real GPS chip, only aGPS.

4) Z9 with external bluetooth GPS works fine with MGmaps (still trying to work out GMM...)

5) Either get a real GPS phone (BB 8830 etc.), or a dedicated navigation system.

Hope this helps. Sincerely, -atmfrank (atmfrank@yahoo.com)

[brett k]

Well if it doesn't have real gps I dont see how the att navigator can work, not that it ever worked for me anyway (I had that 96% problem)

[Skrilax_CZ]

Well let's say it this way. aGPS on Z9 is advertised only because it supports JSR179 (Location API) unlike other phones like V9 etc.

Technically we can say any phone supports 'aGPS' as long as it is supported by the operator. I placed it in quotes because instead of satellites there are towers that 'see' our phones.